HHRay and I went to a free talk by Matt of Vin DiCarlo this past Sunday (March 22, 2009). This has been by far my favorite talk out of the few I’ve been to yet, and it has been HHRay’s favorite as well. The other talks we’ve been to have been by James of Charisma Arts and Wayne ‘Juggler’ Elise of Charisma Arts.

Matt focused on natural game as opposed to canned openers. The topic of the talk was conversation, but great emphasis was placed on the use of touch and he even got a few minutes of discussion about shaping in. 

I really can’t go into much more detail right now, but HHRay and I both really enjoyed this one. It was still a bit of a chore for HHRay to sit through the whole 3 hours as he isn’t as interested in the whole subject of PU as I am, but a few times throughout the talk he leaned toward me to say: “This guy’s the best so far” or “This guy is good”. 

I had to get up on stage for one of the exercises and the bastard (HHRay) took a video on his phone. I guess it’s one of those things that will be going into my makeshift ‘video vault diary’…thing.

LOL.
SD is suspended again. This time with a brand new suspension message:

This account has been suspended.
Either the domain has been overused, or the reseller ran out of resources.
WRZhost offshore Hosting.

When things are going to get settled down with them, I don’t know.

For all of its’ horn tooting about being mentioned in Maxim magazine, Seduction Database can’t seem to keep its own site up and running. The site has been suspended at least twice in the past 30 days. Oh I’m sure it’ll be back in a few days, but with another ‘rollback’. It gets annoying to have to time travel backwards on a forum because an older backup had to be implemented ue to some apparently dodgy practices.

HHRay and I went to a talk by Wayne ‘Juggler’ Elise tonight at the Brisbane Hotel. My feeling about the talk is that it wasn’t bad and wasn’t excellent. Perhaps the novelty has worn off after the first Charisma Arts talk I went to, run by James. HHRay looked just as sleepy as last time, but said that the talk wasn’t boring as such.

I disagreed with several things that Wayne said – such as the idea that you should not talk about interesting things in a conversation with a woman. Also, at one point Wayne said that if a woman responds positively to a particular way of talking she is either “a slut or …” something that I didn’t quite catch. I would have thought that the owner of a respected Community organization would encourage the expression of women’s sexuality instead of calling women who enjoy their bodies sluts.

There were also a lot of things that had me nodding (on the inside). When Wayne said that people’s gaze automatically goes from the face to check expression and hands to check for weapons if they are suddenly approached by a stranger I had to lean over and tell HHRay about how true that was. Wayne definitely seems to have a very good grasp on people’s instinctual reactions to situations. What he said about bringing a girl’s boyfriend into the conversation and other logistics problems rang true as well.

I also agreed with the fact that the first thing you say to a woman doesn’t matter. We won’t remember or care about it later.

We could not finish the talk as HHRay had to get home to study. The second part of the talk, in my opinion, was more interesting than the first and I regretted having to leave before it was over.

HHRay is what I would define as a natural with women – he is the flirt of flirts and evidence of how comfortable he is around women is clearly visible – as well as their response to him. On the way back to his house, I asked HHRay a few questions about the talk, to get the point of view of a guy who isn’t actively participating in the community:

Have you ever been to another self improvement themed talk?

Yeah, the one I went to with you earlier (James from Charisma Arts)

Is everything you know about women self taught/natural, or did you ever read a book or use any other outside source?

I read an article on the internet once by David DeAngelo, though I can’t remember what it is about. I’m not sure why I remember that name, maybe because I’ve heard it so many times.

What impression of the community did Wayne “Juggler” Elise give off to you? Did the teachings seem valid to you as a natural?

The teachings seemed valid, but to me he seemed to be talking about very logical things that everybody should know or be able to derive just by standing back and thinking about it for a second.

Can you give an example of something logical which he presented that everybody would be expected to already know?

What he said about not giving any information about yourself to seem ‘mysterious’ is an example. I mean, of course you have to give information about yourself otherwise what would you bring to the conversation?

How did you feel about the talk? Did it bring anything new to the table for you, any bit of information you didn’t known before? Any new idea that you haven’t thought about?

Not really. He did give out ways of talking to women which I haven’t thought about doing, but I would not use them – if I was to consciously think about how to approach a woman I would just screw up.

Did going to this talk and the previous talk with James of Charisma Arts make you any more curious about the community or inspire you to want to go out and flirt with more women.

No answer. (we all know what that means :P)

You mentioned earlier that you think pickup seminars are scams, a way for people to get money from you. Do you believe this in regards to Charisma Arts judging by the two talks you have been to?

No. The guys there seem like they are genuinely learning something. It isn’t for all people, but I have come to understand that some people can and do benefit from this.

Overall, the part of the talk that we actually stayed for gets 3 out of 5 steamy soup mugs from me:

Note: Any part of this piece may not be used for any purpose without linking to the source of the complete post from the location (web page or otherwise) where it is being used.

On Monday night I went to my first pickup-related talk. That’s right, in the 1 1/2 years I’ve been studying the seduction community as a hobby, I’ve never been to one of these. I figured I would probably be the only girl there, so dragged HHRay with me by offering to pay him with food and a massage. It was run by James from Charisma Arts for $15 per person.

The talk itself lasted for about 3 hours and I, personally, found it quite interesting for the most part. I wasn’t very fond of the picture-showing and the many, many sexual escapade stories, but that might just be because I’m a girl. Then again, even HHRay was sitting on my left with his mouth open in a permanent yawn and his fingers fiddling with one of my hair lackeys. And HHRay is usually a perv. Honey, if you’re reading this, please don’t be mad – you know it’s true.

I think that a better idea may have been for James to tell only the stories that make the biggest point for something. For example, tell the story of the crazy, freaky spanking sex that one of James’ students had with a girl to bring across the very real possibility of breaking boundaries when it comes to sex by being in control of the situation and manipulating a woman’s sensations and arousal.

So we heard stories, saw pictures, and got Kit-Kats as reward for good question answering skills (I didn’t get any, but totally could have if I wanted to >.>). Then came the fun part – all those with a Kit-Kat got to stand up with James and another guy (who looked very familiar, by the way) role playing as sexy females and the chocolate-high induced volunteers approaching them and starting conversations. Practice makes perfect and these guys actually received a lot of good advice about their approaches. James even took the time to actually get each person to approach several times and gave feedback on each one.

I was really happy that despite singling me out a few times for a female perspective on certain topics, he didn’t ask me to sit in as a girl in this exercise. I was treated as a paying customer, not Santa’s little helper.

What kind of made me feel a bit off is that after James found out that I have a blog to which I would probably report the events of the night, he didn’t seem too thrilled and asked me not to post about the event. That was totally fine, I didn’t mind just making a private post for my eyes only to use as a personal diary entry. But then, whether by coincidence or not, it began to seem that the talk became a bit more…woman-friendly? I am trying to think of a better word, but nothing that’s just right comes to mind. I hope that this was just my imagination and that the presence of a female did not influence the actual presentation – I came to hear a PU related talk the way everyone else hears them, not a talk that’s ‘watered down’ to seem more morally correct to a woman. Either way, I heard nothing that would conflict with my own views of what is acceptable and desirable when interacting with the opposite sex.

I very much liked James’ explanation of shit tests – he pointed out that most women do not test a man to act like bitches, but because they need to make sure that he is strong enough and powerful enough emotionally. I do this to HHRay – not on purpose, but subconsciously. It’s a way of keeping the man in check, of making sure that he does not let his control and dominance slip. I want to know that he is in control and knows what he’s doing. An overly needy/clingy man is not an attractive man.

I also agreed that sweet, kind, and caring does not equal needy in any sense of the word.

HHRay, who tends to look down on the seduction community and thinks of ‘Pickup Artists’ as a bunch of self proclaimed posers, also got something valuable from the presentation. Despite acting bored the entire way through, he later told me that he found some parts of the talk quite interesting and that this was not the type of presentation that he was expecting – the practices that James tended to condemn and look down on in his talk were the same things that HHRay himself was against.

While the talk was blatantly promoting James’ bootcamp (which I’m assuming was the whole point of the event), HHRay said that this did not seem like the complete scam that in his opinion most PU-related organizations revolve around – this one actually seemed to promote valid tools and methods of approaching women and starting successful relationships. Although he did say that he almost bust out laughing when he found out what all the terms like SOI, IOI, neg, etc. mean. He could not believe that such simple things that, in his mind, everyone already does naturally were given such complex terms and explanations. The talk made him a bit more curious about the community and he actually wants to go to the upcoming Real Social Dynamics presentation with me now.

Overall, I found it to be a valuable experience. I’m not sure if I thought it was this interesting because it was my first time going to one of these events or because there was actually interesting information on offer. I am sure it’s a mix of both – some of the guys who were present later said that they did not find it very helpful to them, but to each their own. I know I enjoyed it and for me it was well worth the money (even though I paid for both HHRay and myself).

I went to a Charisma Arts talk with HHRay last night. I was going to talk about it in detail, but was asked not to. Not sure why, it was going to be mostly good things anyway. I’ll make a private post for myself later on :)

I recently stumbled across this advice post from a PUA to a guy who wants his ex back. I was going to put this as a comment, but comments were disabled and I’m itching to say it somewhere.

I actually agree with a lot of the post…but this got my attention:

Do you really – I mean REALLY – want a woman with trust issues from abuse?

Come on, man. Set a higher standard for yourself.

What is wrong with a woman who was abused in the past and happens to not trust men as completely as she may have before? Why does the author imply that a man who might be attracted to a woman who was abused before somehow must have low standards? A woman’s previous abuse is not her fault, it doesn’t mean she’s damaged for life, and it doesn’t mean that she will never be able to trust this guy. Yes, it takes a bit of caring, attraction and comfort building, and a bit of effort. But hey, I would’ve thought that if you actually like a person to the point of wanting a romantic relationship with them, you’d be willing to put a bit of effort into it.

I’m not saying this guy shouldn’t work to get rid of his one-itis and date other women. But stating her previous abusive situation as the reason to do so and telling a man who might want to be with a woman who was previously abused that he’s got to set ‘higher standards’ for himself is ridiculous and extremely low.

A female friend of mine recently sent me an e-mail to a forum post about this thing called the “Secret Kino Spot Technique”. We’ll refer to it as SKS from now on because I really can’t be stuffed writing it all out throughout this post. At first I thought that this reminded me of something HHRay has recently started doing – heck, I even became suspicious as to where he gets his information ;). But after a bit of coaxing and doing some more research on the SKS itself, I realized that I was mistaken.

Either way, the Secret Kino Spot is meant to be just below a woman’s hip, kind of on the sides of her butt and it’s meant to make a girl extremely horny when massaged by the fingertips in a circular motion. I don’t know if this is true, but apparently some PUAs are now using it routinely and it works for them. Below is the photo that was e-mailed to me by the same friend, pointing out the location of this spot on either side. Apparently simply massaging that spot below the hip on either side while dancing in a club can do wonders. Also, making use of the SKS during sex is meant to feel awesome. I don’t know if this works, but I’ll definitely want to encourage HHRay to try it so we can find out.

Dr. Phil did a show about the seduction community, enlisting the aid of Ross Jeffries and a couple of Mystery Method guys (Savoy being one of them), in an episode titled “Women, Beware!”

I first heard of this show in one of Neil Strauss’s newsletters, where he mentioned that Dr. Phil first wanted to interview him, but Strauss allegedly declined. Now, I sat down and started to watch the show, ready to cringe at Dr. Phil’s blatant ignorance and judgmental attitude. And in truth, the show got me mad. Really mad. But not at Dr. Phil. I became frustrated with the PUAs who were on it! Beware, there will be a lot of bolding and italicizing here, for personal emphasis.

The entire show turned into a war of teaching methods. They were cutting into each other more than Dr. Phil was cutting into either of them. Ross Jeffries attacked the MM guys for using preset routines, to which they replied that they “show them the openers and teach them to apply these techniques to their own experiences.”

Yeah, that was a bunch of crap. They might mention to them to do this, but you could even see in the video that some dude who was learning from them repeated the pre-taught ‘jealous girlfriend’ opener they showed him earlier word for word!

Ross Jeffries was acting like a prick, too, looking down on the MM guys and talking about how horrible and manipulative they are as opposed to him, until Philzilla busted out RJ’s “If you don’t get fucked, I don’t get paid” line which he uses in his own marketing campaigns, to which Jeffries replies with “That’s just to grab their attention, marketing, I’m sure you’ll understand yada yada yada.”

Ross Jeffries shouldn’t even have bothered with an excuse, but stuck by what he was doing. “Yeah I teach men to get fucked, that’s exactly what I’m doing. You should take a class sometime.”

The Mystery Method guys then accused him of using hypnosis, which Jeffries blatantly denied. Ohh but nooo, he’s totally not using hypnosis. Example of what I do? *Enter NLP* (Neuro-Linguistic Programming, for those who didn’t know) Not hypnosis. So totally not hypnosis.

What a dick head. He uses the “sex accelerator pattern to bring her to a *BEEP* orgasm”, his words, and then accuses the MM dudes of using patterns and routines! They’re all as bad as each other. What a joke. They’re like a bunch of school boys fighting over who’s got the better toy sailboat!

Anyway, Dr. Phil seemed to be totally reasonable throughout the whole thing – talking about both negatives and positives of PU. Although I don’t really understand what the bit with the woman whose money got stolen was for (he interviewed a lady who was scammed out of all of her money by a man) – it had nothing to do with the community itself, but he actually clearly stated that it was something that was totally separate, so props to him for that. Yes, yes, I know that he manipulated the situation, but the PUAs did all the hard work for him. He could come off looking as the good guy observer, watching the PUAs beat themselves into the ground.

At the end, Dr. Phil asked the audience who was for and who was against the community. The reason more people in the audience were against it was not because of anything that Dr.Phil said. It was because of how stupid the PUAs were acting.

I have been studying the seduction community as a hobby for over a year now, and supporting it for almost an entire year. But this entire time I had clearly set guidelines for myself – one of them being that I will never date or have sexual relations with a pickup artist despite defending the idea of the community itself. And I don’t mean a natural who likes to sleep around, not at all. I also don’t mean guys who just study body language itself or learn about ways to keep a conversation going – there are plenty of places to learn this outside of the pickup community. I mean a man who is consciously involved in the seduction community – who posts field reports, who reads books, who uses openers and routines (whether they be his own or someone else’s), who participates in the community.

The reason is simple – while many pickup artists use the community for good, plenty (I’m tempted to say most, but am certainly hoping this isn’t true) use it for evil – at least evil by my personal definition of it. And when I meet a PUA, whether or not he seems like a good guy, whether or not I recognize him running game, whatever, there is always that doubt in my mind that the entire thing is staged and that he is playing me like a fiddle.

So naturally, I notice signs and clues of PU traits – escalating kino, negging, and so on and so forth. There are things that pop out like a gigantic pink elephant, my mind goes into lock down mode and I’m basically thinking “Whoa. Back off.”

There is a huge problem with this type of thinking. PUAs who have been in the community for a while are likely to naturally do these things, without even thinking about doing them! Their once consciously modified traits and body language is now a part of who they are. But I don’t like even the possibility of the idea that someone is actively and consciously running a routine during his interaction with me. I don’t like being suspicious of another thread of thought running in his mind that is going through mental checklists of what he’s doing, what he’s going to do, and when best to touch me in a non-erogenous zone to make it look casual.

It’s really a vicious cycle. I admire that these men are trying to better themselves to reach their goals, whatever they may be, and improve their interactions with women. On the other hand, I’m only fine with it when they put their skills to use on someone else, not me. This isn’t to say that I think it is right to hide their intentions or involvement in the community. While they do not owe it to any woman to blatantly come out and say that they’ve been studying pickup for however long it was, creating lies in order to cover up the fact seems ridiculous and, obviously, deceitful to me. Plenty of women out there are totally fine with the whole idea and hiding it from those who are definitely not fine with it just to get your means is cruel, in my opinion – and falls into my definition of the ‘evil’ side of PU. I never believed in the whole “ignorance is bliss” thing anyway.